Science Vs Religion
By Leo Gura - June 22, 2015 | 95 Comments
The absurdity of the debate revealed
Brett Wright says: Leo,
Just wanted to share with you a true appreciation of all your hard work into the shedding light with profound insights into this topic, as well as countless others. I feel that we should be cautious not to use the awareness of post rational thinking as an argument to shut down the purely science minded folks as that would only be bringing us down to the same level and keeping us stuck in our egos! Your example is a true inspiration. Again, thanks for all the phenomenal insights. These were questions I had often wondered about and felt an inkling about but had found no access to the right information. Keep it up! Brett
Marjorie says: There’s alot of work on my self awareness i must consider, one question; wonder why the high level spiritual descendants prefer to live away from society into the open spacious planes of the world.
Leo Gura says: Because society is a sick circus of ego distractions. It’s all unwittingly designed to keep you asleep and narcotized: work, family, friends, religion, politics, entertainment, education, books, magazines, TV, internet… all of it!
Kevin says: I agree, no apparent intention. But most def a purpose. To show us how NOT to be once we graduate to the next level (as my 7 year old puts it). Which means God is good and therefore it is all intentional
Look at your success. Your leading millions towards enlightenment, like Jesus. Remember this post, and we will sit down and chat about it once we both graduate.
You are changing the world Leo.
Michael says: That’s one of the reasons I stopped pursuing a career in politics and am now working towards a career in ornithology doing my own research into the intelligence, communication and culture of hyacinth macaws (including their ability to understand the dharma). I hope to breed them in a way that would increase their intelligence through breeding macaws that are on or above the average score during intelligence tests. This is still only a hypothesis of course though. I would also like to do some work in Spix’s macaw conservation.
Jon McGill says: Hey Leo,
One topic that you ignored in this discussion was the pseudo-Guru types like Deepak Chopra who talk about conciousness with a lot of woo-woo language. Talking about Quantum Physics, etc… which is designed to deceptively trick the audience into thinking that all the stuff Chopra says is true. Wouldn’t you say that Chopra is a pre-rationalist masquerading as a post-rationalist? That’s what it seems like to me, anyway. My bullshit sensors go beserk whenever I hear him talk. You should be happy to know, though, that my bullshit sensors are calm and untriggered when I hear you talk… so that’s good!
Regards,
Jon
Leo Gura says: His justifications and rationalizations may not pass rigorous rationalist muster. But the man seems to legitimately be enlightened or somewhere close to it.
What’s interesting is that it’s possible to understand the deepest spiritual truths and be a shitty rationalist, which is exactly what many New Agers are. Also many Eastern sages. And then they get immediately dismissed in our Western rationalist culture as pre-rationalists and thus unworthy of attention.
Now to be sure, there are plenty of New Agers who are just playing ego games and don’t have any real spiritual understanding. But I don’t think Chopra is one of them. Just a guess.
Yes, I get past your bullshit sensors because I re-package this stuff in a rationalist-type way. Now, what’s funny, is that it’s just a re-packaging that works well for modern Western culture. 1000 years ago, my packaging would have been totally different. That’s why we got so many religions. Each one tried to repackage this stuff such that society doesn’t dismiss it. And all the packaging is bullshit in the end. Your bullshit sensors are bullshit themselves. What they are, is pure ego. The exact thing we’re trying to remove! Everyone has bullshit sensors: Christians, Jews, Muslims, terrorists, atheists, scientists, etc. We all tell ourselves that our bullshit sensors are the right ones. But notice that that’s just the ego.
Don’t be afraid to destroy all your bullshit sensors. Open yourself up completely. But also be laser-focused on what’s actually true in the present moment.
Jon McGill says: “Pure ego” because it is based on the rational perspective? When it comes to rational debates, in everyday life, it comes in very useful to have a good bullshit detector. Carl Sagan had a really good one that he called the Baloney detection kit. Perhaps that has influenced me to some extent, but I think my bullshit sensors are better than most peoples, because I have mild Aspberger’s syndrome and so I never developed the art of white lying the way normal people do (most Asbies do not lie much). I think that it’s subtle little cues in the way people talk which reveal deception, and you just are not triggering any of those. Eg. not avoiding or anticipating the kinds of criticism that you would expect to hear, or mischaracterizing the arguments of the other side.
I’m not sure what exactly you mean by packaging… Yes, you do give some lip service to the rationalist POV, and it’s not all negative … but I still don’t understand why you would recommend destroying a BS detector… isn’t it good to detect deception? Shouldn’t enlightened people also be experts at rationality, as you said… they should have evolved through rationality to reach higher levels… but still keep their rationality, too. Right?
Leo Gura says: Take a good close look at what your BS detectors are made of. You’ll find it’s beliefs and models — all of which are illusions.
Uldis 
Amanda says: Dear Leo,
So much great information as usual. Thank you for sharing your insights. I am actually astounded at how much some of the things I have learned from your site have transformed my perspectives in a relatively short period of time. This one will be a video I watch a few times as I do with many of them. I appreciate the work you are doing. It has helped to make my life much better and more clear.
-Amanda
Bruce says: What’s the first thing you will do when he becomes enlightened? What will you do with all that “space”? Don’t waste it.
WingWizard says: I don’t understand why you’re so hard on the phenomenon of the ego being unreal and knowing one’s true nature. I mean all literature, science, numbers, theory and what not doesn’t exist by that logic, despite it being ‘true’. What the fuck does knowing my true nature do anything for me anyway? It doesn’t give me food on my plate to eat, it does treat me if I’m diseased or in pain, it doesn’t give me the money I need to survive. Just like I said previously; fancy statements on paper, all this spirituality.
Leo Gura says: It does absolutely nothing for “you”. In fact it destroys you as entity altogether. But it does create the possibility to see Truth. Unfortunately YOU doesn’t make the cut because you are not true.
On paper it doesn’t work at all. When actually lived though, it creates immortality.
WingWizard says: Correct me if I am wrong; You are not a neuroscientist, nor a neurologist. I am not attacking you at all I am just stating a fact.
Now, having an experience of undivided consciousness, does not tell you what consciousness really is, or what it’s relation with the brain is. There is nothing about introspection that leads you to sense that your subjectivity is at dependent or even related to voltage changes or chemical interactions inside your head. You can drop acid, you can meditate, you can do whatever you want to to perturb your nervous system, you can feel yourself to be one with the universe and at no point you glimpse that all that is a product of your brain function.
I have interacted and talked with enlightened yogis and mystics in Koombh festival, in Gangotri and other places in India. They’re meditating and having all these existential experiences. They don’t know a thing about science and neither are they interested.
What I would be interested in knowing, if there any practical implications of Spiritual Enlightenment.
Leo Gura says: What does neuroscience have to do with anything?
Neuroscience happens within consciousness, not the other way around.
The problem is that you’re trying to figure this out from the rational perspective, and that doesn’t work. If you wanna see it, raise your consciousness first. You cannot conceptualize reality, which is exactly what you’re trying to do here.
There’s a very good reason why an enlightened Yogi doesn’t care much about science. Because unlike you, he’s got direct access to reality itself! Why the hell would he want to go back down from reality into conceptual delusions? You’re asking a post-rationalist to devolve into rationalism because you are too dogmatic to evolve yourself up to his level. What you’re doing is akin to a fundamentalist Christian telling a scientist to stop looking in the microscope and instead go read the Bible and pray to God. From the Christian’s perspective it makes sense. But from the scientist’s perspective it is absurd.
WingWizard says: It’s got everything to do with neuroscience. How do you know this Enlightenment is not a result of your brain functioning?
Moreover, how do you know what you’re experiencing is reality?
Look, so far in my very long journey to understand Enlightenment, you are the only person who has talked some sense of it, even though oxymoronically.
All I am interested in, are it’s practical benefits to a person, if there exist any. Discussing Enlightenment intellectually would be stupid as it seems. Somehow, could you ever make an episode, elucidating benefits of it, so rationalists can undertake it effectively?
Leo Gura says: Everything is the result of “brain functioning”! From atoms to galaxies. So that’s a moot point. Do you grasp that everything you ever experienced in your entire life has been a function of your “brain”, so to speak? There is no internal/external world distinction! Do you also grasp that your identification with the brain is a conceptual one, not a real one? Who told you that the brain is you? Check and you’ll see it’s just a belief.
The reason you’re so concerned about neuroscience is because you’re completely identified with yourself. If you were identified with a Toyota Camry, you wouldn’t worry about neuroscience so much, you’d be concerned about automotive repair. Guess what? Every Toyota Camry you’ve ever seen in your life was actually YOU! Seriously! I’m not fucking around. You’re just too asleep to notice it. That’s why you gotta focus on raising your awareness first.
One the dogmas you’re gonna have to drop is the belief in an external objective reality. That is a groundless belief akin to the belief in a physical God.
Look, you’re still not seeing the paradigm shift here. Enlightenment is very practical, but stop looking for benefits. If I told you to go shoot yourself in the head, would you ask me, “What are the benefits of that for me, Leo?” No! There are no benefits for you from that. Same here! Benefits are an egoic drive, a self-survival impulse. But the self is false and this illusion of self will be destroyed! Like seriously! I’m not fucking around here. Benefits are an illusion! So you won’t get any benefits because if you ever get enlightened there will be no one to be benefited, no one who is enlightened! That is not a clever remark. That is the reality of it. The benefit is that you will stop clinging to benefits.
You have to start looking at this from a much higher level than you are now. Your ego is struggling with the notion that one might pursue something that destroys the self. Yup, that’s why it takes balls.
WingWizard says: Moot point? How do you know that the subjectivity you are experiencing is the Truth in the first place? Saying that one will know, does not mean anything. It is nonsensical to label one thing as the Truth and another as an illusion. No two entities will ever know that their realities are the same.
Nobody can ever know they are Enlightened so to speak.
Leo Gura says: Me and subjectivity are illusions. When you see that, your whole paradigm will change.
Mitchell says: Hi Leo,
I just noticed an interesting subtly in your chicken model. Now I havn’t finsihed the video yet, and, yes the chicken in only a model for development, but… the chicken hatches, grows up, grows old. There is a optimum level of develpment for function as a chicken, then there is a decline.
Could an argument not be made for a optimum level of psychic development, then a continued development but decline in function? I do not believe so, but I just thought it was interesting to think about.
In other models, such as the development of technology, there is a continued development, forever. Is there an end? Where is the top? Is there a top?
Karakondzula says: Hi Leo! I dont understand when you say that rape, or to kill someone is not bad thing? Can you halp me to understand this?
Elton says: nothing is good or bad thinking makes it so , and he never said that to do it is not a bad thing ….
Karakondzula says: For me its the same as having said that good and bad does not exist. sorry if my english is bad.
Leo Gura says: What determines good or bad? The ego. Is the ego real? No. It’s a fictional character like Santa Claus.
Kevin says: Consciousness does Leo.
Kevin says: Will you at least admit it’s more valuable to be enlightened than not.
Leo Gura says: No, that’s your egotism speaking. Consciousness is being. Being just is. It is not good or bad. It just is.
Leo Gura says: No, it is not more valuable to be enlightened. Value doesn’t exist.
Kevin says: You defend yourself then why?
Karakondzula says: If i do not use me thinking processi i will be like stupid fish. Cancer is bad for me, healthy body is good for me….are is this wrong?
Kevin says: If you feel the ‘need’ to counter someone’s statement or defend yourself, your resisting something (at the conscious soul level)That’s because the enlightened see everything as true and then choose to help others. If you ‘see’ no self, you will no longer be concerned with its beliefs. Instead, you will want to lead others by pointing their current beliefs to the closest truth to enlightenment. Even a devil worshiper can see the light and lead other devils to the light if truly enlightened.
When in a meditative state, and asking ‘who am I’ – you will ‘see’ the necessity of a Creator and a Son. If you reject the Son, you reject the Self. And will spend eternity (which starts now) chasing yourself until you wake up. The choice is yours. Keep searching. To give up is to enter hell.
UnleashThEnergy says: This video was clearly targeted at western atheists! It wasn’t for me at all.
The only thing that I learned from this video was the Graves Model.
This was one of your most egotastic videos. You know that all these stuff that you were saying is actually poisonous to a mind that never cared for these things! I mean these are all labelings (pre-rational, rational, post-rational), more thoughts! You just put the truth in a way that would look good to a western atheist. However, I don’t really care about any of these labelings, I would go for anything that has the Truth in it.
Also this whole science vs Religion talk doesn’t make much sense to me. How is science a replacement for religion? It’s not. Religious people also do contribute to science, and they do it a lot. In fact atheists saying that religious people don’t think in a rational way is just egotastic itself and it’s also counterfactual. The truth is that the human psyche desires for spirituality. When you don’t have spirituality in your life, when you are so dependent on materials around you, you are gonna suffer no matter what. And science is no replacement for spirituality
UnleashThEnergy says: I mean, the domain of science and Religion/Spirituality is just different. They don’t point to the very same things, so the debate is just null to me.
Leo Gura says: Well… the overlap is in that both try to offer explanations of what reality is and where it came from, and both believe they understand what reality is. Both are wrong.
UnleashThEnergy says: Leo, why are completely dismissing the idea that religion perhaps can give you an answer sometimes in the future?
I think the reason it can’t right now is because the society itself is at the stage of blue/orange. And the people who are promoting religion is also at this stage. Both stages are still pretty close minded. But do you see that religion is taking a leap from absolutisitic to individualistic, from blue to arange?
Perhaps when the society reached the state of green/yellow, Religion will also reach that level and then it can give more answers.
Also do you think when a person gets enlightened, their religion will also get transcended and enlightened like the buddihsts and zen masters?
Leo Gura says: There are no answers.
All religion is enlightenment repackaged for red, blue, and orange stages! If you seek what religion points to, it’s here waiting for you. It’s been waiting for you for thousands of years. Come and get, if you dare.
UnleashThEnergy says: So what do you think will be the future of religions, when the societies reach the states of green/yellow? Cause I don’t think societies wil ever abandon religions…
Leo Gura says: Religions will exist for a long long time.
jared says: So science which is proven through the scientific method is wrong and religion which is like big kid fairy tales is also wrong so you’re right? Acid is the key to this enlightenment you speak of and you know what lysergic acid diethylamide does within the brain? It bonds to your serration receptors allowing them to absorb more electrical signals aka your thought, emotions…etc. Wingwizard is correct neuroscience is correct you’re a new world hippie or whatever word you used and you’re wrong. If you want me to bring psychology into this you were expressing your inner unconscious thoughts about yourself when you said you weren’t a new world hippie when in reality (which does exist because it was a human word to describe our world we do exist in) that explains you perfectly.
Arik says: I watched this video two times. Yesterday and the day before yesterday. Because I wanted to make sure I really get it. And I got. But I probably watch it another dozen times at least.
What I figured out when I was starting my spiritual journey two and a half month ago is that by re-watching these important, spiritual, perspective-changing and also mind-changing videos (if one is open-minded) one gets every time a little bit more information, more depth and more of the core out of it.
This Video just really changed the way I’ll talk to people / help people. Because if you check the level your conversation partner is on in beforehand you can have a way more vivid and useful conversation and you can eliminate a lot of stress and incomprehension.
So thanks Leo for this new model. It really helps to understand. And thanks for the spiritual videos. You pushed me in the right direction with this and for two and a half month now I’m revolutionizing myself and the way I think through spiritual work.
This is what I ultimately look for.
Cheers, Arik
Anthony says: Hi Leo,
I’m curious about what you said in your “how to become enlightened” video. You said that by following that process it could be accomplished in 3-24 months. I know you’ve read a lot on this and and probably spoke with quite a few “gurus”. So, what brought you to that time frame? Also you said that it can’t be made to happen and it’s kind of a random chance thing (paraphrasing). If we fully commit to your process,steel determination and all, will it happen? Or is it still just a maybe? Thanks for all you do.
Anthony
Leo Gura says: That is the ballpark number I arrived at from talking to various people and reading various books and looking at my own progress.
If you stop dicking around and pursue enlightenment seriously like a full-time job, using a process like I described or a variation thereof, it will happen for you within 1-2 years. Again, that’s a generalization. No guarantees. But it’s certainly not just random chance.
If you go fishing every day, eventually you will catch a fish. The luck part refers to the fact that you can’t predict on which particular day your fish will hook.
Olga says: In your video you mentioned that not a lot of people reach the yellow level of development. Can you name some famous people that actually did reach the yellow level or higher?
Thanks!
Leo Gura says: Well… labeling and judging other people’s development is a bit foolish. But perhaps Albert Einstein was around yellow stage. Not because he was smart. But because of how he viewed the world more holistically and intuitively. Many of his quotes have that smell of yellow wisdom. But maybe he was more green. Not sure.
Arber Shabani says: Could Bruce Lee be added to the list? Because he shared a lot of wisdom, not only about the art of fighting but about life too.
Kevin says: As long as you know the hierarchy of existence, labels are irrelevant. If your intentionally avoiding the acknowledgment of the perfect Creator, your still chasing yourself
If your telling yourself a savior of sorts is/was unnecessary; wake up and…watch Superman lol. You want enlightened freedom? Embrace the cross and the old nature (ego) will be clearly seen as a fraud and you will see new Life.
No man can re-write history.
– My journey.
Mikael says: What is it that the post-rationalists agree so much about? What is the overwhelming consensus among them that you mentioned repeatedly? That was left out.
(Could you please answer my comment for once. I’ve been commenting several other episodes before without getting any response from you.)
Thanks for an enlightening video! Keep up the good work!
Mikael
Leo Gura says: That there is no self; that the ego is illusory and the cause of all suffering and human problems; that we live in a dream state; that you are not a human being; that there are no perceivers; that reality is a unity; that you are everything; that you are Absolute Nothing; that you are God; that the Now is all there is; that good and bad don’t exist; that everything is perfect at every moment; that all beliefs are false; and that everything I just stated is just a concept.
Mikael says: Thanks! That’s all I wanted to hear. I will frame that answer and put it on my wall!
Best of luck!
Mikael
Dear Leo- Love your videos– thank you for your enormous time and effort into writing and producing them Please consider my constructive criticism try no to use the FUCK word in your talks. The use of this profanity only dilutes you and your message– Thank you again- Light and Love– Greg
Michael says: What is the name of a good book that explains in detail Graves model of psychological development, including the stages, factors that allow progression and methods for progression through these stages? I can’t find any good sources for this on the internet.
Michael says: Hi Leo,
Thanks for the planet of the macaws idea. (grins over secret plan). I was just wondering how do I get a photo for my profile. I can’t seem to find away apart from use my Facebook login which I don’t want to do as I want to use a different profile picture.
Thanks,
Michael.
Christina says: Hi Leo,
How do you prepare yourself for each video? Do you learn everything in advance by heart? This really amazes me. I like the way you communicate – its so clear! How do you do that, how long does it take you to memorise the speech ?
Alex says: Interesting. I would appear that the way to progress is actually pretty simple, its to meditate. Shut down the mind, kill the ego, and progress to enlightenment.
So kind of the purpose of these videos is to help people remove the mind viruses that prevent them from being able to do the meditation. You are helping people, like me, who are trapped by rationality, see the limitations of rationality and so accept that meditation is necessary. Then the meditation will eventually help make the person enlightened.
Just a conjecture. Do you agree?
Leo Gura says: No, meditation alone won’t be sufficient. It’s just one tool. There is important stuff to learn about how the psyche functions. And learning science and history is still a good idea. Much to learn about life there. Just don’t cling to what you’re learning.
If you want a fast-track to the higher stages, start questioning every single one of your most cherished beliefs. Hold your own feet to the fire. Watch that ego like a hawk. Contemplate death a lot. Practice looking at situations from multiple perspectives. Put yourself into situations where systemic, holistic, intuitive thinking is required to succeed.
Hi, I am still in the green phase…..but why not worrying about whales?
I do.
Raffaella
What do you think?
Kaz says: I love whales too…but I don’t think we should be worried about them. If someone wants to make it their life purpose to save whales or breed macaws or whatever then so be it….it’s just not worth worrying about…..or clinging to as Leo puts it above without the worry then you are just free to work with whales however you wish without any attachment etc….for me anyway…
Leo Gura says: Saving the whales is fine. But notice that people at green don’t actually save many whales. They mostly just talk about it. It’s the people at yellow — the systemic thinkers — who are actually more capable of saving the whales because they understand how to approach the systemic problems in society that need to be changed.
henry says: Very Interesting.
It seems there are some internal contradictions in the levels as taught by Clara Graves (If I understand them correctly) As a psychology professor she would be a product of the “modern” world steeped in rational thought and “modern” metaphors such as evolution, a linchpin of the modern rationalism. She assumes that society and the individuals who inhabit these cultures are evolving to a higher level much as modernity generally assumes that our quality of life, like science and technology, will continue to advance, answering all our questions and solving all our problems. (Including the problems caused by science and technology)
On the other hand, post modern and pre-modern man do not assume that mankind is on a predetermined track evolving toward a some kind of utopian future.
If she exists on a “orange” level can she perceive the nature of “higher” levels of consciousness? If not how can she write about them?
If the natural growth metaphor (mentioned earlier in your talk) is at play rather than an evolutionary metaphor, isn’t the essence of all living thing to grow, mature, then die. Clearly, this is the nature of man. We all go through childhood, adolescence, maturity, and decline in old age. If the same model is applied to cultures, we would expect them to grow, mature, age, decline, and disappear to be replaced in the course of time by something new.
While extraordinary men and women appear in the world from time to time, it seems that I am not all that different from my ancestors who crawled out of their caves at the end of the last ice age.
Henry says: Thank you,
Any other reaction to my comments?
Anthony says: Hi Leo,
How did you find your Spiritual Teacher (master, guru)? What’s a good way to find someone like this outside of Tibet lol? I’m from Pittsburgh PA. Also, would you mind sharing some about your experience with your Teacher? Thanks.
Connor says: There is a question running around my head ever since I got into the pursuit of enlightenment. I understand that this is probably just another ego defense but some words of clarifications would be great. If enlightenment happens then I realize that there is no self – me but I also see that other people are illusions too. I’m curious, why would I care about people since I see that they don’t exist aswell, isn’t trying to help them just reinforcing the illusion within themselves? How to approach that?
Leo Gura says: Physical bodies and human beings exist, and they are an aspect of your true self, so you will treat them well. The self/other distinction will disappear.
Going even more deeper, you will realize that your very truest self, Nothingness, is exactly what others are. So you are both literally one!
Thanks says: Would anti-depressants effect my meditation work?
Neil says: I don’t know about scary at this point for me. But it was at first. I agree that the forces against us can be quite overwhelming and lend heavily to the homeostasis that plagues us all. The energy we get from the masses has much to do with how we feel and with the fact that so many people fit being blue and maybe orange then it makes sense that we gravitate to these interpretations. But let’s keep going Leo! I’m feeling the orange, green, and yellow in different aspects of myself….and ignored the blue lol
It seems that the application of these personal development pearls is the hard part. We can think so well and then act so bad when the pressure is on!
Andra says: This does indeed explain a whole hell of a lot.
I’ve been struggling because I’ve been trying to skip steps.
Even more than the incredible content, the openness in your expression, that love of truth, keeps me excited to see what you’ll shoot next.
Just one question: Is it possible to make peace with insecurity before transcending the rational mind? I’ve discovered that probably all my beliefs and illusions stem from an underlying clinging to the illusion of security.
Wherever there is duality, there is conflict. Wherever there is oneness, there is love.
Leo Gura says: You can certainly resolve many individual insecurities with basic psychotherapy techniques or personal development techniques. But you will still be insecure at the root because the one universe thing you’re always afraid of is your own demise — the death of the ego. So until the ego is seen to be the illusion that it is, insecurity will always be lurking just around the corner. Nevertheless, I do recommend starting off with those basic personal development techniques and slowly working your way up.
guy says: Do you believe in spiritual discernment from the Holy Spirit that can give a man supernatural ability to discern bullshit???
MOHAMMAD says: Hi Leo, with all the due respect, There is no mistake in Lawrence krauss rational thinking.
You are mixing up between 2 hugely different topics, Spirituality and organized religion.
religion is evil spirituality is beautiful.
Liv says: Hi Leo!
This is a very interesting theory and I tried to adapt it into my daily life. Interesting is that I so far haven’t meet one singel person that I believe is in a higher color then myself. Accoringd to me the only reason to this is; I’m in a much lower state that then I’m actually in, I’m fucking high up or I spend my time with idiots. To be honest I think the first example is the true reason why I don’t think anyone is in a higher level then I’am at. This understanding has made me listening to other people much more and try to understand there point of view in a much deeper level. For this I thank you and I loning for the day I meet someone that I belive is in i higher state then I’m.
Keep up the good work
Craige says: Leo why don’t you prepare video notes to accompany your videos. You did it on other videos in the past.
Here’s an interesting and somewhat ironic thought: isn’t your self-awareness/ego the reason most people pursue enlightenment in the first place? If most people pursuing enlightenment observe themselves honestly I think they would find that they are doing it more for the personal gain and growth thought to come spiritual enlightenment, as well as becoming “superior” to other people and their mind sets. Not saying that this is always the case, but perhaps it is something for people to consider within themselves, or anyone else who claims to be attaining spiritual enlightenment for that matter.
Leo Gura says: It doesn’t really matter why you pursue it. As long as you get there in the end, your original motivations transform.
UnleashThEnergy says: I’ve recently talked to some of my more religious friends and it let me to think a lot and see more into the kind of hypocrisy and close mindedness of religious people! I felt a lot of compassion as I also was exactly like that not long ago! I was grateful that I’m not like that anymore.
I still do recognize myself being dogmatic in my beliefs whether religious or not. But I kinda know that I don’t want to limit and define myself into a way of thinking. I wanna feel free and shapeless. I want to let go. I wanna empty my cup of everything.
Still I very much feel like following some of the rituals, however I want to let my mind be free if possible!
artsyatsy says: thank you Leo!i guess THANK YOU sums it all up! plz never stop posting
Samir says: Read this properly Leo, because someone’s self image is going to get cracked and destroyed..
Ok, so I watched your video with a high expectation, thinking that I am going to get some new insight and I will know about something I didn’t know before, but I am left unsatisfied.
Why? Because I have been there, I know what you are talking about and I have been knowing it for more than 5 years. Guess what? I still haven’t resolved this problem. What problem? The truth. I still haven’t found the truth. And what you are talking about is what I knew about 5 years ago. I don’t think that you know the truth.
So what is it that I knew about 5 years ago?Ok, first let me tell my story ( in a few lines)
I am only 19 years old now. At age of 14, I kind of changed. I used to play computer games a lot. And suddenly I came across books of New age writers. My life changed instantly. I was now thinking of law of attraction, thinking about the power of positive thinking. I started to believe in the supernatural. Then I turned into Yoga, to Buddhism etc etc. I became a total yogi. I meditated a lot. My life was completely different. I think that my psychology was all green. My world was green. I was not of this world, but something beyond.
Then time went on, and I came across Osho, and then the second revolution happened. This time, it was not about things supernatural, but something different. Osho was the first person who shook my beliefs , who made me see life as it is, who just threw away all the supernatural bullshit out of me. But still, life was green. It was completely different. Different in the sense that :- I was always aware of my ‘no self’. I It was like :- this is the truth. There is nothing else. I meditated a lot, reached samadhi like moments many a time.
And then, a third revolution happened, with one idea:-
“There are no truths. Only perspectives
, beliefs and states.”
OK, that is what happened to me a few years ago, and I think now I have slid back to orange from green.
That was all just my background, only to give you an idea of what I have gone through, so that there is some weight in what in what I say. So let me tell you why I am unsatisfied with what you said.
You said “Science is also a belief, religion is also belief.” Yes that’s true. Science is believing in things which you can observe, religion is believing in things which you can’t observe. Guess what? Isn’t that also a belief? What do I mean by that?
“Science is also a belief, religion is also belief.” That is also a belief.
Can you see that everything that you say is a belief? You can’t just state something without believing in something. You can only observe phenomena without believing it, but you cannot state it without belief. Now I will go 1 step ahead, I challenge you , that for every fact you state, I can tell you what you believe in.
And why I am unsatisfied? You said “You mustn’t cling to believes” WTF? What you are doing is the equivalent of a person who is smoking and says “Smoking is injurious to health”. I just laughed hard when you said that. Just look at yourself in that video. You are literally drinking alcohol and saying that we shouldn’t do it. You are clinging to the belief that “You shouldn’t cling to beliefs”.
Do you realize something… we can’t function without beliefs… You are functioning so well, you are talking about things so well, why? because you have a perfect belief system. If you don’t have beliefs than what happens? You get mad. How do I know this? Because I have really tried living without beliefs.
What happens when you don’t have beliefs? You become mad. Can you see it how?
What is living without beliefs? I
It is not drinking a glass of water, because you don’t believe that it is not poisonous.
Not talking to your friend, because you don’t believe that he is not a murderer.
You don’t believe in E=mc square
And can you see a destructive oscillation that is happening?
1. You don’t believe in anything.
2.You don’t believe in mass energy equivalence.
3. From 1 and 2, You Believe in mass energy equivalence.
4. From 1 and 3, You don;t believe in mass energy equivalence.
5. From 1 and 4, You believe in mass energy equivalence
And it goes on and on and on. Its like a computer virus. A
This is what happens when you truly don’t have a belief. And if this is not happening to you, then you are literally believing in something.
Yah, I know this looks madness, but you are not doing this, so it will look like madness.
So here I am, I have realized that there are no truths only beliefs. BUUTTT,, I don’t want this to be the case. I still have that a little pinch of green in me. So I came here, expecting that you would reveal to me the main shit about religion. But No, you just told that its all perspectives, its all beliefs. But does that lead to the truth? Truth like :-this is it? No you haven’t done that. You haven’t done that. You haven’t told me anything. I want the truth, I want the fucking truth.
I want the plain fucking truth. What do I mean by truth? I want that truth which Lord Buddha knows. That look on his face, shows that he knows something. He knows something about this world which no one knows. Its like, he knows what this is all about. I want that truth Leo. I want that fucking truth.
I can only want and want and want and guess what? And I will die.
So I am 19 now. I am completely orange. I have beliefs, but I am aware of it and I know that its only a belief, and can be changed.And I Am doing well in my studies, working towards being a doctor. Your videos are powerful Leo. Your videos about life purpose, motivation etc are awesome. My life changed with your video on will power. You are doing a great job. And you are very very underrated. People like you should become a celebrity.
But the truth remains. No matter how much you tell us not to smoke, you are still smoking. I just want plain fucking truth leo. Plain fucking truth..
Key says: You are it. The raw present moment. Your perspective and beliefs are not. Leo points. He doesn’t claim to be describing the truth. Remember it’s not communicable. More than likely this post will challenge your self image more than anyone else which, like alchemy, will assist you in your journey. But there must be no arrogance. You must be humble.
Samir Karki says: “You are it” what? The truth? I don’t think that makes any sense to me.
Neither has Buddha ever said that. What makes Buddha so special is not what he seen. but what he has seen. He has felt that opening. If you read what Buddha said, it’s really not that complex. He is really saying childish things, things which any lay man can understand. But it’s not what he says, but what he is pointing that makes him the enlightened one. And that
Key says: Stop believing in the Buddha in form and the past and realize that you ARE.
For me, I see these things as true, then, I have to go to work and play the game with people that still deeply identify as merely their body/mind. You are a fluctuating expression of God. One with God. Not equal. One. Pure spirit. The need to know the truth in terms of “story” or thought, can go on infinitely because we are creative source. Pure creativity. So hell yeah we can jump from view to view, doctrine to doctrine in the mind. But you are not your mind. Use your mind, don’t identify as the mind or your search will never end. Just my perspective though. There are an infinite amount of perspectives of the truth.
Samir Karki says: “You are it” what? The truth? I don’t think that makes any sense to me.
Neither has Buddha ever said that. What makes Buddha so special is not what he says but what he has seen. He has felt that opening. If you read what Buddha said, it’s really not that complex. He is really saying childish things, things which any lay man can understand. But it’s not what he says, but what he is pointing at that makes him the enlightened one. And that is the best Buddha can do due to limitation of words, and we all want that which he is pointing at, and non of us are having that opening . And we are all meditating and meditating and the opening doesn’t happen. So I turn to Leo Gura for help, but to no avail.
So what’s the point of watching this video? I am better off meditating, and waiting for that opening.
Samir Karki says: I had to repeat that comment because I clicked the submit button by mistake.
That was my first comment. Now this is my reply to your reply to my comment
First:- I don’t believe in Buddha. I just see that my mind is talking about Buddha but no, I don’t believe him.
I don’t believe in anything. Just nothing . I can see your beliefs , your futility. I can see my beliefs and my futility.
All I do is, I mediate. I am just aware . And that’s it.
Key says: Cool bro. Just trying to help. I’m pretty sure that’s all Leo is doing too. I understand your frustration and your probably about to have a breakthrough. Remember (and be real), your only 19.
Katarzyna says: Hi Kamir,
you are on a very advanced stage considering your very young age, congratulations! It seems to be indeed a huge riddle, how to function in a life built on beliefs and concepts having completely questioned and abandoned them. It seems impossible as you yourself discovered. The only way would be to dissolve yourself from this artificial way of life. But it’s apparently not the purpose of enlightment otherwise all enlighted people would immediately dissapear from the dimention which is visible for us, common people. IMHO it is possible to question and abandon all beliefs and systems and still live the “normal” life. You are simply not attached to the beliefs and systems anymore. You know that they exist and you use them as tools to function in this material world as long as you hold your fourfold material body. Only after your material body gets dissolved, the struggle between dimentions/worlds dissapear.
All the best on your path
Kasia
Thabane says: Keep up the good work Leo .. Learnt so much from this vid.i like the fact that when you present these videos you don’t sugar coat things and the fact that you on your journey to enlightenment so that what really makes learning from you easy
daniel says: mind + blown
amazing video.
thanks!!
Daniel says: Hi Leo,
I think that the debate science vs. religion does make sense when religion actually makes a model of reality which can be disproved by science methods (experiments). What do you think? Maybe god isn’t well defined by the most influentual religions so scientist try to disprove the often paradoxical creature.
Regards
Daniel
Edvard Skaug says: Great video, and a real eye-opener. But is it rational to be irrational, or am I misunderstanding this English word?
Is IQ in any way corralated to how easy you advance through the stages?
Max Raoy Gron says: I’m not getting tied into pseudoscience, that my “neurons don’t connect”, bullshit! I’m not a sick, dangerous, anxious person, you can do away with reality, it sits in its own faeces. It’s what’s called a piece of shit. The real problem isn’t duality, but not uniting two things together or being in a unity, rejection of one belief to support the other is what starts wars, I should do both: Descartes’s fancy duality and Leo’s attacking of not uniting the both, they’re both the same, only a different system of thinking. Leo isn’t transcending reason, he’s throwing up on it, he shits on other beliefs to maintain a sect which has a problem with admitting it’s wrong, do you see he’s not brilliant? He’s a monster, I love him so it’s sound, but I hate having to not stand up for what I believe in, which is appropriate. The laughable thing is the dangerous thinking of doctors on the whole, even with their psychology, it’s preposterous how they’re so right about everything. I’d rather believe than be right, and it’s all a spell of misunderstanding, and I think I understand completely that Leo’s right sometimes, but he’s throwing rationality in the garbage disposal. I throw away science and anti-science, anything of that structure, and throw away all kinds of anti-religiousness, even spiritual not religious, it’s a sin and if I drop my beliefs to kiss arse to a sect I’ll be going to hell, this isn’t against Leo, it’s against war over other beliefs which is absurd!